Give It Away to Grow: How to Build a $4B Practice on Abundance | Nathan Bennett

What if the fastest path to a $3M or $5M practice was giving business away instead of hoarding it? Most advisors are wired for scarcity — protecting every client, every lead, every dollar. But Nathan Bennett, Managing Partner at Summit Financial Group, has built a nearly $30M revenue firm approaching $4B in assets on the exact opposite philosophy.

In this episode, Shelby sits down with Nathan to unpack the abundance mindset that has powered Summit's 20-year run — and why the advisors who give the most seem to grow the fastest.

This one is packed with frameworks you can take directly back to your practice.

We cover topics like:

• Why giving away clients to other advisors actually accelerates your own production and fills your book with higher-value relationships
• The Summit model — the middle path between full independence and the wirehouse ceiling — and why it's produced multi-million dollar practices in under a decade
• How Summit structures equity, profit-sharing, and compensation so that abundance is financially rewarded, not just philosophically encouraged
• The three non-negotiables Nathan looks for in every advisor: hungry, care about people, do it right
• Why breakaway advisors at sub-$500K revenue may be setting themselves up to fail — and what to consider instead
• How the Summit Symposium and client experience infrastructure creates stickiness that solo advisors simply can't replicate
• The scarcity vs. abundance mindset — and how your relationship with time is the real bottleneck in your growth

If you're debating a breakaway, building a team, or just trying to unlock the next level of growth, this conversation will reframe how you think about what it takes to get there.

Hosted by Shelby Nicholl. Produced and edited by Aaron Sherman. Operations and Guest Coordination by Shelly Hadel.

Transcript

Shelby Nicholl (00:00)
What if giving away more business actually led to more growth? What if the way to build a million dollar practice, a $3 million practice, or a $5 million practice wasn't by clinging tighter, but by letting go? Today's guest is Nathan Bennett, managing partner at Summit Financial Group. He's built one of the most thoughtful growth platforms in the country. Affirmware advisors get the support, structure, and scale that they need to serve better, grow faster, and still own their own equity.

This episode isn't theories, it's about infrastructure and building the right thing in the right way. So if you're debating a breakaway, looking for leverage or building your team, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Nathan Bennett (01:05)
Big question to start out with. First of all, thanks for having me. Looking forward to doing this with you. Oh, the North Star. I think it all comes down to wisdom and serving the client well. In our world today where technology and AI are just going to enable all the knowledge in the world to be at everyone's fingertips, I'm not sure that it can handle the knowledge part. And so how deep can you get with people? How across the entirety of their life and their family can you advise them?

And can you really get to what matters most to them and then advise them across all of that? I think that's the North Star where financial advice is going. As far as our history and my history, I've not been in any other profession since I left college. lost my parents at a young age and really felt like if I could do something that helped people understand their financial situation that I'd be doing the world of service. so this is once I found out that I wasn't gonna be able to play sports after college.

I went and decided on this career and started building a financial services career in about 2006, myself and a couple other people set up Summit Financial Group, which is where we operate out of today. So we're just about to come up on our 20th anniversary. And we have this belief that if you do it right and serve people well, you won't worry about where the business will come from. And thankfully that's been true for us. And we're approaching 30 million in annual revenue and a little over 4 billion in assets at this point.

We're doing something correctly and we're really grateful for all the teammates along the way that have helped us help a whole bunch of people and make their lives better.

Good.

Yeah, I suppose everyone has to make their own decision. I do see a lot of people on the quest for independence and maybe our industry did that for them. I don't think our industry has been particularly great on how we've treated young advisors or brought them into the business. And so a lot of people, whether they're at an RIA where they're in some lesser roles or they're at an independent broker or a broker dealer or a warehouse where they were sort of dictated how they would be, they sort of felt like they needed to get their freedom.

And I'm seeing a lot of people when we will meet them about where their next home should be thinking that they, because of what they experienced, that they need to set up their own shop and do everything themselves. And they might be doing that at just a couple hundred thousand dollars of revenue. And I don't know how to build anything like what I think the world's going to need you to build and what clients will need you to build without a little bit more scale to it. And so what we've done at Summit is sort of put ourselves in the middle. We said, I don't think you have to be out there on an island where you get a

you know, a huge payout and have to worry about everything from space to computer systems to software and people. And you certainly don't want to be inside somewhere where you're told how you're going to be and your ceiling is capped for you. And so we said, Hey, you know, what if we did it different? What if we built a place advisors didn't want to leave? They still had ownership of their practice and they had a place where they could sell that practice when they retire. And we'd hopefully invest in all the infrastructure and all the scale that they would need.

to be able to execute at a high level and build a much bigger practice than they would have been able to on their own. So that's the niche we've carved out at Summit and where we operate. I think it served us well. There are lots of people doing wonderfully in this industry and it's robust industry with lots of client need out there. So there's a lot of ways to get to the top of the mountain. But I do see some people on the belief that they need to be independent, giving themselves just a whole world of headaches at a size where they really can't afford some of what they might need to be an elite advisor.

Yeah, mean, America was built on entrepreneurship. So someone who has a dream about building an organization, I'd never get in way of that. I do think our industry has hurt a whole bunch of folks though. And I've seen it in conversations, talking with other practitioners where the main goal is just to how do I build a large enough practice? How do I pay the least amount to those that helped me operate that practice so I can sell it to a third party and cash in my equity? Equity has really become a big term.

in our industry now, there's a lot of independents who are kind of solely focused on that. And I think there are some really quality people, quality advisors, you'd sort of stuck underneath that, they really can't find their way to equity. And so they think the only way to do that is to go build it for themselves. So I'm a little bummed about that for industry. think there's a better way. We sort of left the world of growing people from, you how do you learn how to be a good advisor? Can you grow up into a firm where you have a future? And so that's what we're trying to do. But I understand the

emotion around it because there's definitely some folks who feel like maybe there's been built a little bit on their packs and they in order to get what they can they need to go build it from scratch themselves.

Yeah, and then feels a little bit scary, right? And I think the model there is, do you pay them just enough so they don't make the jump? And at our side, we're like, how can we empower them to go as far as they can go and then try to build the infrastructure around them so that they can focus on the things that they do well? Like your time is your most important commodity. And I think we'll talk about abundance, which is one of my favorite topics here in a minute. But the one thing you can't create more of is time. And so how can you allocate that resource, which is scarce?

to the things that are highest and best use for you. And you'll see it with some of the RIAs now that are gobbling each other up for scale purposes. Those that went independent, made it work, and are realizing they need some of those things, they're all merging together to create that. So we're just coming at it from a different way. We're all trying to serve clients really well. We should never lose sight of the fact that if we're not serving the clients well, we don't have a job. So they always have to be first.

Sure, I would never stop anybody from however they wanted to experience the abundance. But for us, it's really the belief that there is just so much more opportunity out there than we're ever going to have time or capacity to serve. And I think our industry, maybe people in general, but we're sort of wired for scarcity, We're wired to take care of ourselves, take care of those we love. And it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of

If somebody got this piece, then there's one less piece for someone else. And thankfully, in the world of financial advice, there are so many people who are building wealth and need help with their happily ever after, whatever that looks like, whether it's financial independence or business succession and state planning, all the things that go into the dynamic of someone's money and their life, that I just view it as they're just not close to enough competent professionals to serve them. And so therefore, just massive amounts of abundance.

to the point earlier that you can't create is an abundance of time. So if you want to be a really effective financial advisor, you want to serve at a really high level, you want to have impactful relationships with people, you're going to need to focus on them and they're going to need to feel that, right? I think the magic trick a little bit of the industry, if you're trying to build a sizable practices, every client needs to feel like they're the only one. Every advisor needs to have enough systems so that they can survive and serve well.

If you're thinking that way, it's pretty easy to get into a scarcity mindset of, know, I need to really look out for myself. I need to make sure that I'm thinking about my next move. Unbundance mindset is like, there's so much opportunity out there. I'm only going to work with those who fit well. If it's okay, if it's not a great fit, if it's not a great fit for me, maybe it's a great fit for someone else. And so we've built Summit Financial Group on this concept.

let's work with the clients who are exactly the right fit. And if they're not, or there's someone else on the team that could serve them better, let's give it away. And I say give specifically because I think a lot of people in industry with that scarcity mindset attach a value to every single client or prospective client relationship. And so they either want to sell those or get something in return for them. And the way we've done it at our firm, if somebody has an opportunity that comes to them and they really don't have the capacity to serve it at the level they want.

We encourage them to give that to another advisor of the office. We do an internal split on the compensation of that client, but there's no connection after that. any referrals that come from that, anything that gets built out of that relationship, regardless of size, is 100 % to that next person that we gave it to. And when people hear that, especially people who grown up maybe in a wire house community or in a place where you kind of eat what you kill, it sounds counterintuitive. And they're like, I can't believe you're giving business away. And what we have found is that every time someone does that,

their own productivity and production has skyrocketed because they're filling their time with people who are exactly right for what they're trying to do. And they tend to be larger and more profitable relationships. And so it's not charity, that's not woo woo. But it has really built some terrific people. It's helped our younger advisors as they've joined our firm grow much faster. And we have several advisors that are about a decade into their career that are in multi-million dollars of revenue that started from effectively zero.

and they're all really, really talented in their own right. They would have done that on their own somewhere. I think we were able to do it faster here, and the not-so-secret secret is that senior folks who helped that grew faster themselves because they filled their time with exactly the right clients. So we've rebuilt some highly productive practices with this abundance mindset. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. And I know there's some consultants out there that will say, you know, send them a letter and let them go to know, a swab or fidelity or someplace. They're just not really the right fit for you. And we just, as a culture, we just never felt like that fit us. Right. Those people committed to us, wanted us to help them and kind of our responsibility is to make sure there's always someone who can. And it sort of helped how we build our firm. When we started it 20 years ago, it wasn't like we want to be large. In fact, we didn't have any desires to take over the world or anything. We just thought we're going to.

do really good work for people. But a couple things happened. One is you're going to be built by referral. You didn't want to tell someone no, because they're all connected together. And two, you want to work with really great people. And if you want to work with really great people, it's hard to bring them on and say, hey, congratulations. Here's your cube and here's your laptop. And this will be all you do for the rest of your career. Please expect a 3 % cost of living. It'll be great. I don't think that's how anyone wants to be recruited into a firm. And so once we realized that we wanted to work with great people, great people wanted to grow as well.

that gave us kind of the impetus to say, we're going to be a growing firm because growing firm provides pathways, great people can advance, they can do other things. And you get to serve at a high level and you get to have more impact on more clients at the same time. it was sort of organic. We didn't go into it with, want to be really large, but I think that abundance mindset sort of informed the whole thing. And it's been a really fun.

Yeah, it's not everybody, right? We do have some barriers to entry. We charge a certain level for financial plans. We have a fee schedule, you know, certain level of client probably doesn't feel like we're a great fit regardless. And that's okay. But for those that do, and just because the advisors practice grew to a higher level, it just doesn't feel right to say that we as an organization can't serve them the same way with the same level of care. We don't really build a tier into the...

If you're on the bus, you're on the bus and we want to take care of you. We have a do it right mantra is one of our three pillars of the kind of people that we want in our organization. part of doing it right is it doesn't matter how big they are, if they committed to us and they're paying us what we ask for our services that we give them our very best.

Yeah, we talk about people joining someone, we want three things. We need people who are hungry, they need to care about people, and then they got to do it right. So we almost think of them as behaviors. Our purpose is enriching lives. And when we think of enriching lives, we mean obviously the clients. We deal with the financial realm, so that obviously has a little bit of a double meaning there. We certainly mean of our employees, the people that work with us. It's no fun to come to work every day and not feel like you're making a difference in their lives. And then in the community as well. So those are the three sort of things that go with our purpose.

But the three things that are the behaviors that feed that purpose are those hungry, care about people, and do it right. Hungry because we want to be around people that are achievers. I don't know about you, but it's not really fun to be around folks who are trying to mail it in or in a contest to see how little work they can do. We're all about efficiency. We're all about process. We want our people to live great, balanced lives. But we are achievers too, and we want to be around people that are like that. The care about people part matters a great deal because if you're all hungry and you don't care about people,

a jerk and perhaps our industry has gotten a reputation of having a couple of jerks in it and we don't want any of those either. So, caring about people, if you don't care about the clients, if you don't care about each other, if you're not there for that, it's probably not a great fit. And then do it right is all the effort stuff, know, do your homework, learn the stuff, you know, you're not just selling to get the deal or to win the client relationship. You're there to

serve them, guide them, and coach them the best way you can as if they were your family. And so that could mean everything from our newest employee who's learning our processes and not shorting that to a senior advisor who's digging in on a really complicated situation and reaching out to estate planning resources to make sure they understand a particular trust. Make sure you do it right is important to us.

Yeah, I think it's definitely a desire to do that for those who want us to, right? We're not a perfect fit for everyone, but for those who commit to us, we want to be all in and make sure that we're doing the very best we can for them. I don't think about that event a whole lot now. It's been a long time in the past. I've had so many blessings. I certainly don't want people feeling sorry for me about it, but I think anytime you have a dramatic event like that where you understand how important finances would have been had they been a bit different.

It makes you have a passion for it or a belief in it. So when you're talking to somebody, you certainly don't have to try very hard to help them understand why you think it's important. And that resonates with people. I think they know that you care more than they know what you know, which is probably a good thing because in today's world, everybody can know everything. There's several chatbots out there that can help you answer just about any question. But the wisdom to know which question to ask and how it fits in your situation is a little bit different.

I think it will always be a relationship business and people will always crave that level of coaching and advice and that's what we're trying to be there for.

That's a really great question. I always get nervous talking about the level of services because there's so many great firms out there doing different things. I don't know if family office light is exactly right, but we are we are getting deep on everything. For example, with a client going through a mortgage situation and you're chomping on the phone with the mortgage broker, we don't sell mortgages. But you want to make sure that they're getting the right thing for their situation or spending time with their tax accountant and really making sure that the work you did is getting integrated into the quarterly tax estimates, et cetera, so that when you think about it in that regard, it's truly comprehensive. It's not just

asset management. When you think about what you need to do to have that available, oftentimes, if you go out on your own, you've got to build it from scratch. And so you're renting it from either a broker dealer or an RIA. You're leveraging your internal resources in the community, et cetera. What scale can bring you is some of those resources in-house, right? So we have a full-blown planning team. have behind them the resources of the high net worth team at Raymond James. We can have

a marketing department if you want to put on an event that you can go and do that and they will help you make that happen. It's really hard to do that when you're starting out. And so the ability to utilize some of those and we make all of that available to all of our advisors regardless of size or regardless of tenure. And it's a huge head start. It is a huge lift in the early days of being able to go quickly and focus on the things that are most productive because those resources exist. We believe in that forever and try to fill it with the best humans that we can.

Because once again, who doesn't want to work with great people?

Yeah, I some of it's a mindset, Just saying, hey, we believe in this and anything you can do to build relationships is something we encourage. So we create these pools of capital for our advisor each year. They're kind of a use it or lose it. They're not compensation, but they're there for them to do events and things with their clients that can build a deeper connection. We do some stuff on a larger scale too. We have this thing called the Summit Symposium. It's actually about a month from now. We have this theme of educate, entertain and inspire.

We bring paid speakers from the outside. It's a Saturday, kind of mid morning to early afternoon. These kind of speakers might demand 15, 20, even $50,000 for a speech. And because of the scale of an organization, we can bring that kind of talent to a room. Clients leave feeling empowered, they really feel like they're part of something larger. And you get this great feel good moment of bringing this important stuff.

to the people you care about most. And that's really hard to do when you're starting out, if you're in a completely independent scenario. So being able to leverage some of that as we've grown, we've been able to level that up. Our first symposium wasn't as impressive as our last one would be, and we continue to try to make it better every year. So I think those are things that a firm can really lean into, and as an advisor is building their practice, they can leverage off of that. Whereas if you were doing it on your own, that'd be really hard to do. Just the cost alone would be difficult.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not even sure if we're competing with them. You know, obviously Creative Planning's built a great, great organization, but for the, you know, the few hundred clients that will come every year, they certainly feel like it was pretty impressive for them, right? And so I think you can meet them wherever you are, regardless of your size and what you're building. You start small and do something that's impactful. It will resonate. And we're in our 13th year now of the Summit Symposium. And there are clients who kind of set their watch to it. They won't miss it.

We already reserved last Saturday in February, we're going to be there. So it's fun to build those things and get some momentum.

Yeah, I think in the grand scheme of business, I suppose they're worthy competitors. But I think the abundance mindset is just so much for everybody. There's way more people that need help than there are good people to help them. I there are great advisors under every flag. There are probably some advisors there that maybe aren't doing it at the level that we would expect. And so if we could just work on what we could control and help those that want to be helped with our model.

think we're doing well. We're certainly going to do the best that we can to grow that footprint and impact more people. But that doesn't mean there's not room for others as well. It's thankfully not a zero sum game in our industry, and I'm really grateful for that.

Sure.

That's a great question. First of all, it's something you have to be really careful with because I think if it feels forced, think an advisor would feel like you're pushing them to give something away and scarcity might creep in. So it's got to be their choice. Usually it's our people coming to us and saying, hey, I'm feeling overloaded. I just don't have enough time and regardless of where they are, but I don't want to stop. I'm still hungry. want to build something more. And so I think

It's not necessarily a size thing, although naturally you're going to keep the sort of largest and most profitable clients in your book. I do think it's that client where hopefully you don't have any clients where when they call you're just like, ⁓ no, I don't want to talk to them. I'd encourage any advisor anywhere to just not take that client on. But sometimes there's clients who will call and you just can't fit it in. And all of a sudden it creates anxiety and stress for you because you're taking the call at eight o'clock on a Friday because you couldn't get to it because of the other meetings.

I think if we're being honest with ourselves, we should ask, are we really serving them at the level that we would love to if that's the way we have to get back to them? And I think it's a common belief for advisors to think, my clients really need me. I am particularly great at this. My relationship with them is terrific and it just won't be the same if it's anyone but me.

If you've ever experienced an advisor leave an organization and then their clients stay behind, you will realize that that's probably not quite as true as maybe our egos wanted to believe. I think we should work really hard at making it so that they never want to work with anyone besides you. But I think if you built a great organization with great people in it, they actually will be kind of grateful that they've got the ear of somebody perhaps a little quicker than you can get back to them. So if we can get over the ego bit about the only person that will serve them well as us and then be able to say, Hey, you know what? I'm not able to call them back till eight o'clock at night on a Friday.

but this person that over here is be able to put them right into their normal client rhythm and it's going to be a much better fit. I think we can do that in a way where the client feels every bit as servant. And because we're doing it under the same umbrella, and this is an important part about Summit, the clients don't feel like they did move. It's just part of our team as opposed to having to send a letter that you're sending it to someone down the street. if we do this well, it just feels like it's part of our organization as opposed to being pushed aside.

It service center on your statement. doesn't have the same warm and pleasant feeling.

For sure.

I'll just make this one point because obviously we've seen the senior advisors grow when they did it, but we also build the compensation around it as well. So our senior people have a certain level of productivity. We share half the profits of the firm every year with them. And so if you're helping other advisors grow faster, that's leading to more firm profitability, which is coming back to you as one of those really drivers of the business. So we've tried to the incentives so that it's a win-win.

Financially as well, which the times get in the way Let's just just be honest that people feel like they were hurting themselves economically. They wouldn't want to do it So we try to make sure that while we think it's the right thing to do We've always seen the productivity increase to try to reward on the back end

Yeah, and maybe we're crazy for putting ourselves in that middle spot because I think there's a lot of folks that are on the one end, you know, building out an RIA and sort of staffing with as many folks on the W2 side with limited upside as possible. And then those who are going out and being that owner leader themselves and trying to get the most revenue out of it or the biggest multiple. We just felt like scale mattered and the team mattered. So we needed to have that, which meant we needed to have an organization that was healthy enough.

So that means you weren't just using it like a money tree and pulling out all the dollars. But at same time, people will care a lot more if it's their business. We think they'll do it right in a way that is next level if they're part of it and they own it the way that they do. And so as a result, our valuations for individual practices might be slightly below what an independent person would get out in the world if they were selling to private equity, for example. But.

We've also offered opportunity and equity in the firm if we're wrong about that. if there is more value in what we're creating than what we anticipated, we're not taking that away from anybody. So we're trying to have every door open to them, even though the way we're building the firm is so that we can continue it ourselves without necessarily selling out to a third party. It's so hard to know, know, decades in the future, what will be the right fit for an organization that, you know, is currently 45 people and might be significantly larger in the future.

But we certainly want an opportunity for it to be self-sustaining. We want our people to feel like they had ownership in their practice the whole time with a ready buyer to take it when they retired. And also the upside that if there was something great that was being synergistically created, they'd have a piece of that as well.

To keep it little bit simpler, have equity appreciation rights, sort of work as deferred compensation, but they're tied to the value of the enterprise. And then everyone has their own equity value, true equity value on a capital basis in their practice. So that's how we have those two pieces.

We work hard at not having folks that just give by. Obviously, we go straight to those pillars, right? Hungry, care about people, do it right. Those can't be taught. We can teach other things. I think someone who really thrives at Summit is got an achievement mindset. They've got some grit and they want to go do that. But they appreciate that the resources and sort of the time that is created by the resources around them allows them to focus on what they do well. I think someone who would not do well is someone who heard about this abundance mindset and go,

all I have to do is get into summit and then people are just going to give me leads. That would not be the case, right? People are building their own practices, using the tools that we have. And there are some of those that happen as well, but they sort of supercharge the growth. They're not the marketing strategy in and of itself. And then those people who just care about those around them want to serve at a high level. We've just sort of fired your desire. You're around a bunch of people who care about doing it right and are achieving at a pretty high level. So you tend to, tend to.

act like those who are around you and mimic those who are around you. It's become a really fun thing to sort of see if we can level up every time we bring someone in the organization.

my pet peeve is that our industry is kind of letting the world think that this is what you go do so that you work very little and make a whole lot. And I guess that that's possible once you've built the size of whole lot of practice, but we're much more of like, how could we achieve? How could we have a bigger impact? How could we make a difference in our community and the lives of our people? And so that means that that's not going to be the folks who are trying to do the least amount possible.

Yeah, exactly.

give it away to grow, ⁓ realizing that, you don't, the time is the one thing you can't get back empowering others actually helps you grow faster. That, that was a huge win many years ago for me. I did it first on my own practice team where I brought someone in, at a split of revenue. maybe it wasn't going to be a marketing person that truly had all the other attributes of a lead advisor and just was like, I think it's going to be better.

together for us to go do this. And I think there were more than one person who would have questioned that decision at the time, saying, are you going to give away that much of your future productivity? And it's been the best decision ever. Kind of morph that forward to not only on that individual team, which was my practice, but then being able to give away clients that are prospective clients who maybe weren't the perfect fit and we didn't have the capacity for, which then kind of bled its way into the rest of some of this organization growing. So giving away to grow is counterintuitive, but it was a big.

That's it, chef, for me.

Oh man, I have so many favorite books. think folks in the office, drive them crazy because I'm always giving them book recommendations or check this book out. I'll pick one that I think is appropriate to our industry and maybe just a business in general. There's a book called Grit by Angela Duckworth where it talks a lot about maybe the differentiator in life isn't education, isn't wealth status, your head start, et cetera. It's just your ability to pick yourself up and keep going that refuse to quit attitude if you're...

serious about something you're going to go do it. So I think that is probably the one trait for any entrepreneur anywhere, but certainly a financial advisor that you need to have. And I would probably come back to that as a sort of a first principle. There's another book I love sort of thinking about businesses and building business called Small Giants, where every business book that you read in college was all about how to scale up, go public and sell for every $1 And Small Giants was written about firms that choose to just be really great, but don't necessarily get

from industry huge. They might be sizeable, they're not small, but it wasn't all about quote unquote going public. And we're here in Silicon Valley where that is the goal of lot of them are to get acquired by a big public company. And I'm always fascinated by the privately-owned firm that does amazing work, serves their employees and their community really well, and is quite profitable along the way. So those are two totally different areas of the world, but they both mean something to me.

That's cool.

Yeah, I think it's kind of embracing the power of and as opposed to feeling like it's an or decision. I haven't missed a my daughter plays college volleyball in the East Coast. I go to almost all of her games. My son has played sports. I coached my kids all throughout their career. I built a practice that's sizable by most standards and a firm that is doing well because of great people in it. And I think that we sort of have this. Well, if you want to.

do that, you got to sacrifice the home front or if you want to have balance, then you're going to sacrifice their money by, giving away, by leveraging, you know, other people and bringing them along for the ride. actually can do both. So I hope that people can take away that you can have the life you want to have. You can have a, a balanced life and spend a lot of time with the people you care about and still work plenty hard and have a real impact on your clients, your people and your community. And so I think that's a little bit off script because a lot of the

lot of the advice is, I'm going to go for life balance or I'm going to burn the boats and make it all about work and everything else takes a backseat. So I think you can do both.

Thanks for your time. It's been great. Really appreciate it, Shelby.